Ruff Around The Edges
Ruff Around The Edges
037 | Claire Martin & Ozzy of Motherpuppers on Shutting Up and Showing Up
Claire describes such familiar themes. Like what it’s like to look back at how her childhood dogs were treated with the knowledge she has now. How she thought she knew quite a bit about dogs until Ozzy came along.
Ozzy was adopted from a charity, who had done a pretty great job preparing prospective adopters for what it’s like to bring a new dog into the home, and yet Claire, like many of us, still underestimated the reality, partly because she adopted Ozzy when he was still a puppy.
She talks about how it was particularly hard to be the one spending most of the time with the dog home alone and to feel like her partner was the one who just got to do the fun things with the dog, and how focusing on relaxation protocols was something that helped really well.
It had also helped to not walk Ozzy every day and we discuss what it takes to break through the socialization that exists around having to walk your dog every day to be considered a dog guardian.
We also talk about how Sarah Stremming and Hannah Brannigan inspired a “shut up and show up” mentality to bring about change in the dog world. About how the one tip Claire has for others is to put less pressure onthemselves: “Noone is going to die.”, and about what allowed her to change careers and move into dog training.
Links:
Claire's website: https://www.motherpuppersdogtraining.co.uk/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/motherpuppersdogtraining/
https://www.instagram.com/ozzyfromromania/
The dogwalking company Claire's partner Matt walks for: https://fetchcambridge.co.uk/
Dog trainer Sarah Stremming:
https://sarahstremming.com/, and
Hannah Brannigan:
https://hannahbrannigan.dog/
Episode Website:
https://kajsavanoverbeek.com/037-claire-martin-ozzy-of-motherpuppers-on-shutting-up-and-showing-up/
If you're wondering how to feel less stressed about your career, your dog, your family or all of the above, there are things you can do!
There is still time to join First Things First small group coaching on the (myth of) work-life-dog-balance. We start April 15th 2025. Find out more here:
Yeah, because, I mean, I've definitely, definitely had people come up to strangers come up to me in the park where I'm with my dog and tell me that I'm doing something wrong, and you do just immediately go on the defensive. And that wasn't me using any punishing methods, because that was just, Ozzy having a reaction to this person's dog. And then they said to me, you obviously doing something wrong with your dog. He shouldn't be reacting like that. And you do immediately go on the defensive because you think you don't know me. You don't know what you know, or my dog. You don't know what we're doing. You don't know what we have done in the past. Like. And it just it doesn't help anyone to sort of broadcast your opinion about someone you've never even met. Welcome to the Mindset podcast for guardians of dogs who are just a little rough around the edges. I'm your host kind of an out for make a life coach dedicated to making life with your challenging dog feel less challenging, both by sharing stories of other people's similar experiences, and by showing you how you can harness the power of your brain to make it work for you instead of against you. Welcome everyone to another episode and interview episode of Rough Around the Edges. And you know the drill. I always like to explain or to at least tell you who I'm talking to, at least where I'm talking to you, if that's even a way that you can put it. Obviously it's not someone in the Netherlands, because that would be more of the exception than the rule. I'm talking to Claire Martin in Cambridge in the UK, but or end before I hand over the mic to her and ask her, to tell me all about herself and her dog. I kind of want to, like us and say, Claire, thank you for reaching out because these people are like, what? What she's saying what what what? At the end of every episode, I always ask if you have a story to share and you want to come on this app on this podcast and share it, please reach out and in my emails, my weekly emails that I sent and don't say it every email. But every once in a while I will say, listen, I have this cool podcast. If you want to share your story, please reach out. Please tell me and then we can get together. I can interview you and you can share your story and help other people because you're not the only one. And the more we hear about other people going through the same thing, the better it is. And that is exactly what Claire did. I am going to be asking her about it, because she did mention when she reached out that she's been listening to the podcast for a while already, so that's probably part of the back story. But I just want to say I love that. And sort of this is my shout out to other people. If you have a story to tell, reach out because it's going to help other people. It's and, you know, like, I don't like I'm assuming I'm a human being. We can just talk and chat and it's going to be so much fun. I love meeting you all. Okay. Having said that, Claire, once again, thank you for having reached out. You know, like, take it from here. Tell me your story. Tell me all about your dog. I've already seen pictures of so cute. All the things go, go, go. And. Yeah. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. I have been listening to Rough Around the Edges for quite a while now. I think I've listened to every single episode except for the one that was, not in English. Because I sent it. Yeah. So, I'm Claire, I'm from Cambridge, which is in the UK. I'm currently, working in animal welfare, so I work for a, rescue center. Not far from here. So that takes up, quite a lot of my time. And then I'm also a, I am a qualified dog trainer. And I live with my dog, Aussie, who is a rescue from Romania. And he came over to live with us, in 2021. So, it's almost his third gotcha Day now. It's this month, so almost three years. And, yeah, he's very cute. He's a scruffy, long legged, odd looking dog, but very, very cute. And we love him. I love his like, he's got them. We're gonna link to Ozzy's Instagram, no doubt. He's got the cutest, like, wiry, scruffy coat. That's. You just want to squish him. Okay. But does let me just ask you, does your story start there? In adopting, like when you adopted Ozzy, or does it start before where you working in animal welfare? Before you adopted Ozzy, or did that come after, And why? Of Romanian rescue. Oh, tell me all the things. Yeah. So, working in animal rescue definitely came afterwards. So I guess it kind like my my story, I suppose. Kind of started, as a kid, we always had German Shepherd dogs, some of which were rescues, some of which we had from puppies. My parents, that now retired, but my parents were publicans, so they ran, they ran pubs for the that sort of the whole of my life. So I, I lived in, I lived in various pubs across the UK, as I was growing up and we, the German Shepherds were all pub dogs. They were wonderful. But, you know, I always think you don't know what you don't know. And looking back, knowing what I know now, I would have done things so differently. You know, they they they were so loved, but, you know, there were elements of of how they were cared for that I would never do now. Like, for example, they wore, like, coat collars, like the chains. There was an element of, you know, if they had an accident on the carpet of that old, like, rubbing their nose and, just and I always, I think I didn't know we didn't know anything about enrichment or anything like that. So I think they were bored. They would bark all day. They didn't have anything really to do except to bark all day. They loved being with people, but they were never very well socialized. They didn't really like, the dogs, so quite reactive, to other dogs when you, taking a long walk and I just, I just think if only we had, like, me and my family had known, I mean, we had tried to know more. Maybe they, you know, maybe they wouldn't have had these issues. But. Yeah, like I say, they were well loved, but it's I it's always like hindsight is 2020 isn't it. Anything I wish I'd known what I know now. But you know, so I, I always grew up, I always grew up with dogs. And I thought I knew quite a lot about dogs. And then, obviously, there's always that one dog that comes and completely, completely shows you how little you know about dogs. So that was kind of where my sort of love for dogs came from was having them growing up always. And then, I sort of took a completely different career path. So, nothing to do with animals or dogs or anything. So, I went to university in London, and I studied fashion, and I had a sort of fashion retail sales career, so about ten years, and I'd always wanted I'd always wanted my own dog, but, you know, renting in London and it's it was never really an option. Yeah. So, but then a few years ago, I moved back to Cambridge, which is where I'm from. And, my partner and I were really lucky to be able to buy our own home. And so obviously, immediately, the first thing I wanted to do was get a dog, because, but it's my house now, so I can have I can have a dog. So I've been seeing online these these stories and these videos about rescue, particularly dogs in Romania. The sort of the kill shelters, what happens to them? So it's a huge, huge problem, in Romania and, and sort of neighboring countries in Europe. I remember seeing seeing these stories, about these dogs who would get picked up from the streets and go to a kill shelter. And just felt so, so helpless for them. And then I, I came across a there's a number of charities in the UK that that rehome, foreign dogs into the UK. And the one that I'd heard really great things about was the pet project, who, wonderful. And, you can tell really, really care, about these dogs. So I got in touch with them thinking, you know, there's probably gonna be a really long waiting list, and it's not going to happen anytime soon. And, but immediately they, they said, well, you know, we've got these puppies, that were found on the street, a boy and two girls. They didn't find them. Just the puppies. And they've been taken to the, their partner. So the pet project have a, Romanian partner called care for dogs. Romania. And so they've been taken to their shelter. So while they're waiting to be rehomed, we have this one, the little boy who's called Osborne. And would you would you like him? Here's a picture. This is the date that he's coming over. How about him? And so I sort of took one look at this tiny, fluffy puppy, and said. Yeah, so it doesn't matter if it's a puppy picture or a real life puppy, right? As soon as they show you a puppy, basically. That's it. You're, you're done for it. Which is probably also why they tell you never go look at puppies because you're going to come home. Yeah. That's one. Yeah. I couldn't imagine, going to a breeder and, and, you know, not taking home a puppy. So I completely understand how people get themselves in those situations. But I'm interesting because you said those were, those were puppies. Do you did you know or were you told, anything about the circumstances they were found in about their age if the mother was still there? Because obviously, knowing what I know now and which is not what I knew a couple of years ago, alarm bells are ringing, I'm thinking, oh, did they, have to leave their mom? Maybe too early. Were they very young? Because that's also often, you know, a red flag or an indicator of, you know, trouble ahead. Was any of that the case? Did you know about it? How old were they? Yeah. So, yeah, completely agree with you. And I didn't know that at the time either. I didn't know much about, you know, the socialization period. And, I knew that if you got a puppy from a breeder, it would be about 8 or 9 weeks when you took it home. But I didn't really know why or the details about it. So we didn't really know very much at all. We knew that it was Ozzy and his two sisters. They didn't find the mum. So whether she got caught, taken to a shelter or died or. I don't know what happened to her. Believe when they found the puppies, they were about. So it's 10 or 12 weeks old. But they the laws of bringing animals over from Europe into the UK. I think it's changed now, and it's. And it's older, but it used to be, you couldn't bring puppies over until they were at least I think it was four months. Ozzy came over when he was four and a half months. But he did go to a foster home for two weeks before he came to us. Because we were having building work done on our house. And so he was five months by the time we, we had him. And had been through quite a bit already, but at least it wasn't. I'm going to say, at least I don't know. There's probably trouble ahead that you're going to tell me about, but at least it wasn't a five week old puppy or six week old puppy that was already found without the mum. I'm just. This may sound horrible, right? Maybe you're going to, like, prove me wrong and everything, but at least it was 10 to 12 weeks. But then obviously the whole move being in a foster family for two weeks and then coming to you, that's quite a lot. On a young dog. And by the way, I think what you said about the four months, I think that makes sense because as far as I know, which is I recall because, you know, I share my time between the Netherlands and Austria and we took, Russia to Austria at our earliest possible convenience, which was indeed four months, because the rule was that they have to have their rabies vaccination and it has to be it takes three weeks for it to fully start to work, and they can't have it until 12 weeks plus. So that plus then the time that it needs for the rabies vaccination to properly kick in. Yeah. Brings you to the to the four months. So that's probably it. But yeah. So he's now a little over five months. He's coming into your home. Did you pick him up straight from the foster family. How did that go? I just I'm just I'm sorry. Just before I even let you answer, I'm just thinking back to when I got rusty as a puppy. And. Oh, my. Like, nobody can prepare you for those first couple of days, I felt it felt worse than when it's worse. That's how it's bad. But then when I had my kids, it was so much. And I remember the second day calling my friend, crying and going, I don't know what I did, what, what did I even think I could do this with a puppy? So I can only imagine with a dog that's already been through quite a lot. So how did that go? Yeah, totally. You're absolutely right. Nobody prepares you for what it's like to have a puppy. I feel like I definitely experienced that, like, puppy blues, because it's a lot. It's. I still, I know about dogs. I can do. This will be absolutely fine. It's just a puppy. You know what could go? What could go wrong? But, yeah, we picked him up straight from the foster home. Which was about an hour from here. And the lady that was looking after him, was so lovely and kind, as she had to, to pack project dogs already as well. And she was fostering another puppy at the same time that she was fostering Aussie. So I think, I think that was quite nice for Aussie, really, to spend those two weeks with, another puppy, too old, but sort of well socialized dogs. And so he seemed to do quite well. And in the foster home, I remember the foster saying that he was the most chilled puppy she had ever met in her life. He just wanted to lay on the sofa and have cuddles and I think was still a bit shy. But the other puppy who she was fostering was, you know, like running riot and like, you know, trashing the place. And also, he was just sort of very calm, and looking back, probably a little bit, a little bit anxious. So, yeah, we picked him up. He came straight over to us, was very, very friendly. Didn't seem worried about us at all. Which was lovely. And he did really well in the car. He he wasn't, he wasn't worried in the car. He got a little bit sick. He he had trouble. Sickness when he was young. She got a little bit sick in the car. Otherwise he was fine. And then we brought him home and, I've got this picture of him when we first brought him in, and, he's just looking at me, and he's got these long, gangly legs, and he's just staring at me, and I was just sort of thinking, like, what do I do? You know what? Like, now you're in my house. Like, what do we do? What do we do? I had everything set up for him. We had, like, a nice crate for his, like, safe space and had all the toys and all. All the enrichment, products that, you know, you can buy. Because the project did a really good job of sort of preparing. You have the sort of things that you'll need for the dogs. And you know what, what sort of challenges you might come up against, with, with a foreign rescue. And so I had all the information that they provided. So I went out and bought all the things as you do. But yeah. And then he was just in my house, so I was like, wow, okay, you're just in my house now, what do we do? And he was he was quite shy, but seemed, you know, just like a normal little puppy. He wanted to play, sort of get, get into everything. And so, yeah, he at first he, was, you know, a little bit shy, but not showing too much, like, anxiety about things. So, you know, he's fairly confident. We were introducing him to things very slowly. Yeah. He was a really funny looking little puppy with these long legs. Okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me ask you something already, because you said, which I think is lovely, that the pet project did a good job of preparing you and telling you what kind of things you might encounter with the rescue and like what? You know how do you set up your house? Can you tell me a little bit more about that? So what are the kind of things that they talked about that you might encounter with the rescue and also, I'm very curious to know what your thoughts were about that because I wonder so I don't know what their information sort of package. Says. So I'm really curious about that. But also, I can imagine that your brain was telling you things about that, maybe that you know, that stuff wouldn't happen with your dog, or great, that I have that information, but we're probably not going to get there. Or if if that is the case, I'm so well prepared. None of that's going to be an issue. Like, what was the information and what was your thinking about it when you first learned it? Yeah. So so there was a there was definitely a lot of information about when you first bring the dog home and the sort of, decompression period, you know, as, as much as they try and make it as quick and as painless as possible, the journey from Romania to the UK is stressful for the dogs. I don't think there's any any way around it like that. It just is. And so, you know, they might they will have been enough, in a crate with lots of other dogs, who are probably barking, and toileting. They don't, schedule stops. So they just, they just try to do the journey as quickly as possible and just get them here. So they're in the van for maybe 24 hours, something like that. So it's yeah, it's going to be a stressful event for them. And so, yeah, there was a lot of information about decompression letting them just be, not trying to interact with them too much. Unless, you know, letting them come to you, providing them with a safe space. So, like a crate with a blanket over it. It's got nice bedding in it and not encouraging trying to encourage them, you know, out of it, just letting them, you know, choose, making sure there's food and water, all the time, for whenever they might choose to have it, introducing them to the home really gradually. So you want to start off with them in one room. And then, once they get comfortable with that, then you start introducing them to the rest of the house. Just, you know, the sort of problems that you might come up against are that they're terrified, basically. I remember, another family that adopted a dog on the same transport as Aussie. So the project, well, for each transport, they will put you and the other adopters in like a Facebook group, first of all, so that they can keep you updated with the transport and. And what under what time the vans expected to be in etc.. But also then it becomes a bit of a support group for everybody. So, you know, you can share your successes or share your struggles and, you know, help each other, sort of you're all in the same boat, kind of, kind of thing. So it was to help everybody, have that support from people who are going through the same thing. And I remember one family with that dog, I think she was called Sophie. And sort of they were sort of telling us about their progress for quite some time. And she wouldn't come out of her crate for a number of weeks. She was sort of too scared. Who world? She wouldn't approach them. And I remember when they said they finally sent a photo of them with her, like, sitting on the floor with her, and they were like, this is like the the. Biggest day ever. Best day ever. She's come out and she's sitting with us and she looks happy and I remember thinking, wow, we're so lucky. But that didn't happen to us. It wasn't as bad as that. So I don't know how they how they coped. They, I mean, they're amazing for, for sort of that. Patience, right? Yeah. The patience. Absolutely. Back to your point about my did my brain go, oh, well, that won't happen to us. I remember sort of thinking, well, at least he's a puppy. And so there's, you know, there's still so much opportunity for him to learn and for us to, like, build this bond at a young age. And he's not a dog. That's sort of 2 or 3. He's been living on the streets for that amount of time. We'll struggle more to adjust to a home environment, but I definitely I definitely didn't think it's going to be smooth sailing, but I think I was still quite naive about what kind of troubles we would encounter for sure. Yeah, I think I love that because I also think that realizing that it's not going to be smooth sailing, and then being in that not smooth sailing and actually experiencing it are two very different things. Say, oh, this is what they were talking about. Kind of experience that comes. Okay. So and I also love the Facebook group idea of having this support and seeing what other people are doing and how they're going through it. So that sounds pretty good. At first it seemed okay. Ozzy's a little bit anxious, but it doesn't seem too bad. And I feel like there's a, there's a but or an end coming. So where did that start? Yeah. So I guess it kind of started after he sort of got a bit more comfortable and came out of his shell. So I think with any, with any dog that you adopt, they seem sort of, you know, like the, you see, you hear people all the time saying, oh, this, this dog is perfect. He's just, you know, very he's like settling in so well and he's very calm. And we're not having any troubles at all. And actually, I think that is just the settling in period where they don't feel confident enough to be truly themselves. Because they're still sort of trying to figure everything out. And so it was probably a couple of weeks into Ozzy coming to live with us. The he a lot of it was he just it felt like he didn't know really what to put himself. He was very sort of unsettled. He would bark at all. And the barking got progressively worse. Over time, he would just be, it would seem like he was barking at nothing and everything. He would also just sort of stare at me all day, just sort of stare. And then he would bark at something, and then he'd be staring at me again. And I remember thinking, like, I don't know what you want. I don't know what you want from me. Like, I can't figure out, like, what is it that's not okay in your world? And, like, let me try and fix it. But I just couldn't read him. I found him really hard to read, and I was working from home at the time. So I was home every day. This is sort of one of the reasons why we thought we'll get a dog, because I was like, well, it's perfect because I'm home every day. So he wouldn't have to be on his own. And I'll be there all the time, and I can walk him in my lunch break and, you know, do all these things. Whereas my partner was working in hospitality and so would go out to work every day. And you know, at the weekend as well. And he used to work every single weekend. And so it was the weekends that I found particularly hard because I wasn't working, and it was just me and Ozzy in the house not knowing what to do with each other. And I just it was very lonely for a while. You know, sort of my partner would come home and would be like this one dog that I'm like, you know, be really playful and be really small and do lots of nice things with him. And I just thought like, I'm here all day, like doing all the hard stuff, and then you get to just come home and, like, be fun dog that. And so I found that, I found that really hard. I felt like as sort of sympathetic and as as caring and, and lovely as my partner is. I was like, you don't you don't see it. You're not here all day. And yeah, I just found that very sort of isolating the barking, was getting to the point where I felt almost like it was very, very triggering for me. And so even, even now, I will. I'm, I say I'm almost over it now, but for a long time, like if I had, if I had like lots and lots of barking, which I tend to do where I work, because I'm working with dogs in the kennels, sometimes I get very triggered by that, and I feel myself having this, like, physical response to it. Because it was just. Yeah, I found it so overwhelming, I think when it was happening was, I'll say. So what was going on in your mind at the time with the barking? Was it? I'm trying to fix it, but I don't know what to do. Or was it just the barking? Was it more than that? And I say just the barking. But like you said, if there's one thing that's triggering to humans, it's barking. Like physically we react to that. So when I say just the barking, please do not take it as me saying that, that is nothing. But like what? What did you find the hardest about that time aside from and I and I think that's something that adds on. Right. Your partner coming home and not having experienced that which is not his fault at all. It's like not he can't transport himself there. It's still, it feels like you said, isolating. And then the resentment builds, which is hard on the relationship also. But if you're looking back to specifically the time where all of that was building, what did you find the hardest? I think what I found the hardest was, feeling like I was dealing with a lot of it on my own. And also I felt that I was doing everything I could, And I wasn't sure at the time what, you know, what more I could be doing. I was we would, you know, we were playing, we were doing in Richmond. We were going out for walks. I was setting up his environment so that, he always had stuff to do while I was working, but there was a period of time where it just felt like as much as I was doing, it was sort of never enough. And that I think that's why a lot of the time I felt a bit like, what is it that you want? Like, why, why are you staring at me? Like you're trying to tell me something and I can't figure out what it is. And it's, Yeah, it was really, really strange and really frustrating for me. Because now with Aussie, we have really good communication and I know him so well, and I know what it is that he needs because he still stares at me, but I just know what it is that he needs. And I just remember, you know, tearing my hair out, like, you know, you've, you've had you've had lots of enrichment to do today. We put on a long walk. We played in the garden with, like, done all this stuff. Like, what else is it like, what can I do? Just don't know what you're trying to tell me. So, yeah, I just found a found it to be quite frustrating and, a bit lonely. I. Yeah, just. Well, I was, and with all the barking as well, I felt very, very triggered by that. And again, just couldn't, couldn't figure out what it, what it was that, that he needed and that was, that was the worst bit for sure. So where did that start to sort of turn around? The was there a point where it was, you know, like now we're at our lowest. I'm about to throw in the towel. So that actually that's one question in my other question would be, did you get a lot of, I want to say, unsolicited advice or remarks or help from other people? That made you feel worse because I can definitely recall other people saying, oh, just do this or just do that, or, you know, like that, give you the one liners where you're like, yeah, if it were that simple. Thank you very much. I would be doing it already. But that obviously adds to the frustration, right? Same as when your partner comes home and gets to play Cool Dog dad, you're like, really? Again, not anyone's fault or not anyone to blame. I'm okay. Maybe we can blame other people for not keeping their opinions to themselves. It's just however you want to look at that. But yes, those two things. Yeah. I mean, there was a time where it was really, really affecting my mental health. And I was, you know, crying all the time, just really down about all of it. And I would speak to family members and, and friends and, you know, they were worried about me. And, there was a few comments of, I think you just need to get rid of this dog. It's not working, and it's making you really unhappy. I know that that came from, like, a place of love. So they were worried about me, primarily. But for me, that was never an option. I couldn't I couldn't bear to part with him, despite all the troubles they were having. And I just thought that's that's me. That would be me giving up. I'm not prepared to do that. That was sort of the main. I think that would be like the main comment or people being like, if it's too hard, just don't do it anymore. But I couldn't, I couldn't relate to that. As I think well, I guess where it started to turn around was I sort of threw myself into training and learning about dogs and their needs and their behavior and their body language. Excuse me, and their body language and, I found a lot of support in the positive reinforcement community. It was something that I had first heard of, through the project. Because they had recommended, if, you know, if you felt like you needed a trainer, to look for a, either MDT, so Institute of Modern Dog Trainers, trainer, or a Victoria Stilwell Academy trainer. So they were very clued up on the positive reinforcement dog training side of things. And I was like, right. Well, what I'm doing isn't working, so I'm going to need some more help. And we saw we've seen a few trainers and behaviorists over the years, of varying successes, really. And I think the first, the first one that we saw was a lot to do with helping with the barking. And what we learned from that was, teaching, like relaxation protocols and, set all training. We also put Ozzy on, like, a supplement, that's supposed to help with anxiety, behavior. So, something like a powder, to add to his food. And actually, that, that really, really reduced his barking, like, overnight. And I was shocked that it, you know, it would work so well, but it really did. And, we still use it a little bit now. But not as much because he's just generally a lot less worried. And so, yeah, I, I just wanted to find out as much as I could, you know, to be more knowledgeable and help in any way I could to sort of make his life less, less stressful and more fun. And so I yeah, I just kind of threw myself into it, really, and started doing lots of training with him. Yeah. Seeing behaviorists, adding in these supplements, basically throwing everything at the wall and saying, what stuck? It was kind of the idea. That is hard to do, though, when you're coming from a place where you aren't feeling too great and where you're feeling overwhelmed. So, yeah. If if you're thinking back what allowed you to, then I basically want to say, pick up that dog training and get started. Because when you're at a place of, I don't know what to do anymore, to then get with the program basically and do more training and especially the positive reinforcement training. It's a slow process. Often it takes a lot of commitment. It takes practice there. There aren't immediate results. A lot of the time. So where did you find the energy? Where did you find the motivation from feeling. So I'm going to say feeling so crappy. So a really good question. I don't really know. I think I just felt like something's called give. I need to try everything. I guess that was my motivation. And I think also by this point, you know, I'd started to build a bond with Aussie, and I just wanted all the good things for him. I didn't want him to be worried. I wanted him to be relaxed and to be happy. Of course. I just thought, you know, I need to do these things otherwise, you know, I, I don't know what the outcome is going to be otherwise, so I'm not really sure where I found that sort of motivation. I think it was just a place of this. This is, you know, this is what I've got to do next because nothing else has worked. And as you were going through that process, were there also times where, I mean, I can't almost can't imagine there weren't times where you were like, okay, I'm throwing in the towel, this is too much, or can I please have like, can I please catch a break? Can I please not be on the lookout, not train, not do all the things that I'm doing for just a little bit? Like how did you how did you manage to stay sane? Were there people that, you know, like, could take the care off your hands, maybe for a little bit so that you had time to basically recharge? Or was it just powering through all the time? Yeah. I definitely had help. So, my partner would help whenever he was home and would, you know, say you go and do something else, like go to a yoga class or, you know, go and do something for you. And, I'll sort of take care of Aussie. So that really helped. And then we also, we also found, a really lovely lady who was doing doggy daycare from her home. So we'd thought about, you know, to give to give me a break to sort of sending Rosie to, like, a daycare center for a day or two week. But then sort of looked into it a bit more and, and thought that those sorts of environments where there's lots and lots of dogs and they're just sort of, you know, left, almost left to their own devices all day. That would probably be more detrimental to Aussie than that. Not and then so we found, this really lovely lady who was just doing it at her house. So it was a nice home environment. That would be maybe 1 or 2 other dogs there, at most. And she would, you know, take them for walks and she would play in the garden with them and she would give them time to rest. And she was just really fantastic, really kind. And he used to go to her house, once or twice a week. And that really helped just to have that bright, I think what, what was starting to become really hard was, taking him for walks. So he had started to develop some stranger issues. He would be quite reactive when we were out on walks, and he would park people and he would bark at dogs. And he initially would be very, very difficult to sort of disengage, try to put to, to, to bring back down to, to, and I found that really overwhelming and embarrassing and, just made me not want to walk him anymore. And so I sort of gave myself a bit of grace and was like, I'm not I'm not going to do all the walking, I let my partner do a lot of the walking because he didn't find it as stressful as me. I think he still found it quite hard that, he's not as much of a warrior as I am. And we sort of were working with a behaviorist and decided that actually, you know, contrary to popular opinion, dogs don't necessarily need walks every day. I think it's drilled in a lot in like general of dog owner society as like, well, if you're not walking your dog every day, like, what are you doing? And actually for Aussie because he was finding the world so overwhelming, walking him every day was just sugar stuck in him and he wasn't getting any time to come down from that, decompress. And so we stopped walking him every day. And actually, that made a huge difference, for me and for him. And then there wasn't this pressure of, okay, I'm working from home and Max at work all day. So I need to take him for his walk, but I really don't want to. It's going to be really awful. Something bad's going to happen, and it just took the pressure off completely. Not feeling like I had to go and do that thing that was causing me so much, like, stress and anxiety and him as well, actually causing him lots of stress and anxiety. Because he wasn't enjoying it when he was out, you know, barking it at every barking, lunging it at every person and every dog that he saw that wasn't that couldn't have been falling for him either. Yeah. It's the both of you, right? It's not it's not just you. So what I'm going to use the word allow again. What allowed you to say, okay. Now we're not going to to go out every day anymore. I'm just, we're just going to stay home. Was that something the behaviorist said? Was that something that grew, sort of organically? Do you think, depending on what it was, you could have been the one yourself to say, no, we're just not doing that anymore because it's a step, right? Especially because, like you said, we've been conditioned to the max of like a good dog guardian walks the dog, preferably multiple times a day and, preferably at least one very long walk with this and this and that and that and all kinds of requirements are put on it. So then to go, no, we're not doing it. That's a step. Especially if you're you as the human are also already trigger stacked. And every, every little decision seems way bigger than it probably is. What did you need at the time to be able to go? No, I think I needed the I think I needed the permission to not do it. And that came from that came from the, the behaviorist that the, the behaviors that we were working with at the time that came from them. It was, you know, the permission to not like I'm giving you permission to not walk your dog like it's okay. Because, yeah, we have been just conditioned to to believe that that's what makes a good dog guardian, is doing lots of walks and, you know, doing miles and miles and hours and hours every day. And. No, it's just not the case for every dog. Yeah. Really needed a thing. Someone externally to to give me that permission. It's like, it's okay. You don't need to feel guilty. Just give yourself and give us that space to to just relax at home. Do do some stuff at home, like do some enrichment, do some some seeking games. In the garden. Just like, sit together and chill out. Like, give yourself that break. And I don't think I would have come to that conclusion on my own at the time I needed. Yeah, I needed someone to tell me that it was okay. Oh, imagine that you hadn't met this trainer. And I think, if I hear you correctly, what is amazing and what is what was already a plus and working in your favor, was that the adoption agency basically was already strongly in favor of positive, reinforcement training. I actually I actually looked up their website before we got on the podcast and it it, you know, like it spells that out that they are for positive reinforcement. So that's amazing already. I think that was a one up that you had on other people, at least in my book, because we all know like I'm an advocate of, of force free training as well. I'm always trying to figure out how do we get these messages out to more people and imagine that they do not have this access to a behaviorist who says, you know what, Claire? Let's just, you know, like your triggers that are these triggers that let's just not do it. What do you think could help people who are in the same situation, but maybe don't have the expert telling them that, or maybe have an expert telling them something that's completely the opposite and that's making them worse off. Do you have any ideas or thoughts? Yeah. I mean, I definitely want to acknowledge, my privilege to be able to hire those professionals at that time. Because I know that that isn't accessible for everybody. Well, I think what what sort of comes to mind is, I was listening to, I was listening to a podcast, recently with, Sara streaming, who has the cognitive canine, and she, she's so insightful. I love listening to her. She's very, very knowledgeable. And she said something, which I think was quite profound. She said, the best way to sort of spread, spread the message of positive reinforcement is to shut up and show up. Yeah. And what she meant by that was, you know, not being, you know, not preaching, not saying to someone who's got a short collar on their dog like, oh, you know, you really shouldn't be using that because it's, you know, this, that and the other, because that's not going to encourage anyone to change what they're doing. It's just going to maybe make them angry or make those sad, embarrassed or, you know, it's not going to have a positive impact on that person just to come up to someone you don't know and and start telling them all the things that are doing the wrong. But what what she was suggesting that we we as a positive reinforcement community, what we do is we take out our dogs, into the world, and we use positive reinforcement in public, and we show people that, like, I've got this really lovely dog here and I'm feeding it food for doing good things, and it's working. So that's kind of what she meant. I think by shut up and show up is stop, you know, stop preaching and just show off these amazing things that you can achieve with positive reinforcement. And I think that I agree that that is probably the the best way of of showcasing how positive reinforcement works. Which I'm just thinking out loud, showing up, showing how you're not taking your dog for walks is a little bit harder. Maybe because they're going to be inside the house, but you can show the improvement after a period of time where you're not, exposing them to all those stressors. And of course, I mean, I think that's and I think that's part of the reason why I started the podcast also, is to just talk about it. And like, open people's minds to await their. That's the thing that I don't walk my dog if it's not in the best interest for my dog. And obviously there will be dogs who love that and who really want that, that at least the big walk a day or whatever. But it's, you know, like, let's tailor it to not just to the dog, but to the pair of the dog. And the Guardian and their surroundings. Right. Because what works for somebody in the big city might not work for someone in the countryside or. Absolutely, the other way around. Yeah, I love Sarah, and I think, I'll see if I can find the podcast. Hannah Brannigan has a podcast about that. She's the one. Hope I'm not messing that too up behind drinking from the toilet. And I think Sarah and her are actually friends, so they they regularly mention each other on, on their podcast. And she kind of. Brannigan is, a crossover trainer. Who's like fully positive reinforcement now. And she once explained her process or the what happened as she transitioned from punishment based, training to positive reinforcement training. So she kind of was like, oh, this is the best thing since sliced bread. And she said she also had the sort of the like, the preachy missionary phase where she was trying to tell everybody that they were doing it wrong and they should try this new thing, and it was the best ever. And then finally, she also realized exactly. And I think it was even that exact phrase also of like, just shut up and show up and that that works best. And I think, yeah, when I think about somebody telling me, you're doing it all wrong, I'll probably get defensive right away, unless it's one of my good friends or one of my trainer friends who get to be blunt with me and say so. But they'll say it with a different energy, right? They're going to be like, Kaiser. What are you doing here? But this is completely messed up. Stop that. And and they'll probably say it. They'll probably say it like that. Yeah. Because, I mean, I've definitely, definitely had people come up to strangers come up to me in the park where I'm with my dog and tell me that I'm doing something wrong. And you do just immediately go on the defensive. And that wasn't me using any punishing methods, because that was just, Ozzy having a reaction to this person's dog. And then they said to me, you obviously doing something wrong with your dog. He shouldn't be reacting like that. And you do immediately go on the defensive because you think you don't know me. You don't know what you don't. Or my dog. You don't know what we're doing. You don't know what we have done in the past. Like. And it just it doesn't help anyone to sort of broadcast your opinion about someone you've never even met. And I think. Yeah, it does a it doesn't foster good, good feelings for anybody. Because I know I went home after that encounter with that stranger and, and just felt awful, like I was the worst dog garden in the world. And even though I knew that, you know, I was doing the best that I could, and the, you know, this grumpy old man knew nothing about me. But it. Yeah, it makes you feel awful. It really does. And it's. Yeah. As much as I think you want to shout about positive reinforcement, you know why it's. So you know why it's so great and everything like that. So there are ways of doing it that aren't going to make people feel defensive or embarrassed or, you know, like bad people. Because I don't think I don't think anyone is trying purposefully to, to harm their dog. They're just using the information that they have, you know, doing their best. Like I said earlier, it's like, you don't know what you don't know. And if you if you've been told, I'll put the shot putter on it will help you feel really cool and you do it. That's that's the information that you had at the time. Yeah. I think this is a nice sort of segue because there's something that I wanted to ask you still, about, you know, your family dogs growing up and what you described about how they would still bark and maybe they were bored. And then the situation with Ozzy now, because what I work on with a lot of people, obviously, is mindset, how we think about things. And what I my guess is, is that as you were growing up, like those dogs would bark and they might have been bought, like in hindsight, but at the time, were you or were your parents as worried and as sort of engaged with the situation as you were with Ozzy? Like, what was the my guess is that the thinking there was completely different. It might have just been like that. This is what dogs do. Yeah. Exactly that. Yeah, yeah. Completely, completely different. That was never, there was never any concern about the dogs behaviors when we were growing. When I was growing up, it was it was always just like, oh, the dogs barking in the garden again. You know, and you might you might call them in for a bit, a little barking for a bit, and then they go back out and they start bucking again. But there was never any like, oh, you know, maybe, maybe there's something wrong. It's just like dogs bark. And that's what he's doing. He's just barking in the garden. And yeah, a completely, completely different mindset. Like, I never remember feeling like, oh, that we need to intervene. Even with the, dog reactivity, it was just a case of, oh, you just doesn't like dogs, and that's fine. It's. Yeah, it's really different. Really different. It's funny. So how do you think? So this is sort of the nasty question. How do you think you can take a little bit of, of that relaxed ness, I guess, because my guess is that did not take as much of a toll on your mental health as, caring for Aussie did. So how can we combine a little better? What would be your suggestion to to have a bit of that relaxed attitude and combine it with, you know, good caring for our animal and good, and really, well, I guess trying to take care of their mental health because obviously thinking back, maybe like your German Shepherds, they could have benefited from a little bit maybe of stimulation or a bit of a bit of training. So in that sense, there was, I guess also a lack of knowledge. But how can we, can we be relaxed and be aware of what it is that we need or want to do to help our dogs? Have you found also, maybe now that you're 2 or 3 years down the road with Aussie, a way to do that? And what's the secret sauce? What's the secret ingredient? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think definitely in the last, maybe, I don't know, 18 months, maybe not even that long. I've definitely, been able to find more of a calm place, that, you know, come from, doing the doing sort of the work that I do now with, with dogs and also, working on myself, my own mental health. There's therapists and, and and everything like that. But I have been able to come to a place where, you know, I am more relaxed. I, you know, I'm taking some of what he's doing just at face value, saying, you know, okay, so we went for a walk today. Our knees, he had a reaction. But you know what? He disengaged really quickly, and he recovered really quickly, and it really wasn't that bad. And I think because I'm less stressed about it, I think he's less stressed about it. And so we're kind of helping each other just be a bit less anxious about it. I think I used to be very like, if we would go for a walk and he would have reactions, I would come home and it would just ruin my whole day and I would feel like I'd done something wrong or that, you know, I was really worried that he was then really stressed and that would make me really stressed. And I think now it's more of like, if it happens, it happens, but we just move on. You know, we, we see a dog. He might, we walk the other way and we feed some treats, and, you know, that makes everybody feel better. I think it is just having having that mindset more of like, it's probably going to happen, but, you know, it's not that bad. Nobody's going to die. Everything is fine. We know we'll just go about all day and just not letting it become so, like, consuming of everything. I've. Yeah, I've managed to find that that place now, which I think helps. And it's not easy to sort of get that either. It's because I am a naturally worrisome person, and I feel a lot of guilt all the time about, you know, various things and to to just have that acceptance of, like, you know, looking at the dog in front of me and this is who he is and it's not the end of the world. You know, we can just move on and nothing, nothing terribly bad is going to happen. I love that you're using the word acceptance. It's one of the things that I always kind of preach. Like radical acceptance. Almost. Yeah. Both of yourself, both of the dog and like you said of the idea that it's probably going to happen, you know, it it is probably going to happen. And we're just going to deal with it when it does. You said, you done a lot of work also on yourself without going into detail, is there something about that work that you can pinpoint that allows you now to take that distance and to be more accepting and to have it consume less of your day? If there were one thing that you could, you know, pick or would have to pick and tell other people, this is it, is there something like that? I know it's a tricky question. Yeah, it is a tricky question. I think for me personally, well, the biggest thing I took from it was just not putting so much pressure on myself, and allowing myself to just be as well, not feeling like everything was came down to me. And, you know, that allowed me to feel less guilt, and less overwhelm about situations just not feeling not feeling as if everything was on me physically. You did tell me. And that's kind of what we started off with. Also, that you started listening to the podcast. That's one thing. So I wonder where that came in and if that was any help and what particularly about it was helpful. But also that, you know, you did what a lot of people to you who have a challenging dog and who spent a lot of time researching, training and behavior modification is you sort of switched careers to animal welfare, to dog training. When did that happen? Are you now, for example, also specializing in helping anxious dogs or rescues? Do you do different things? Did your brain go, no, I'm staying far from that. Let me just teach nose work or obedience or any of that. How did that happen? Feel free. Also, by all means, plug your business. People need to know that there are trainers out there who understand what it's like to work with dogs like ours. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I, I first came across the podcast, when, you interviewed Georgie from Trick Wolf's. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I had been following her, Instagram account. And, I lost her cartoons, I think, that right. Oh, that's so great. And they're just amazing. And sometimes I opened up open Instagram and she posted a cartoon, and I'm like, do you know what? That was exactly what I needed to hear today. She's just. Yeah, she's just so insightful like that. And so I've been following her on Instagram, and I saw that she had been a guest on your podcast. So I listened to that episode, and then I started listening to all the episodes. And I just really, really, it really helped me, you know, in exactly the way that I imagine you're intending it too, is that, you know, reactive dog guardians can listen to it and, can, empathize and relate to your guests. It makes them feel like they're they're not the only one that has these problems. And, you know, they can see that there's, you know, take some positives from each person's story. And that's what I really that's what I really liked about it. So I think it's it's an amazing platform to have. So thank you for thank you for doing it. And then in terms of yeah, I did I did a complete career change, last year. So I like I said, so earlier on, I'd been working in sort of fashion and retail for about ten years. What I studied at university. And so I've always said the career path that I'd sort of imagined myself having and then I it's going to sound really cliche, but I went to I went on a yoga retreat. My friend, my close friend is a amazing yoga teacher, and she organized a week long retreat to Greece. I just spent a week there, just, like, really, you know, relaxing, not worrying about anything, and just doing yoga and going to the beach and seeing these this beautiful place. And, I just really. When I got home, I just felt like, I'd had some space and some time to really think, like, am I doing something in my life that, you know, makes me happy? Probably not. And so I started studying, with the Institute of Modern Dog Trainers, who are amazing. And, so, so I started working on becoming an accredited trainer, and then a volunteer opportunity came up, the rescue organization that I now work for. And so I started volunteering and then a full time job came up, so I applied, and now I'm working full time, in the kennels with the dogs, who are waiting to be rehomed. And then more recently, I launched my own business, my dog training business. It's called mother puppies, dog training and behavior. Some of the names. Thank you. It's a bit. Yeah, it's a bit tongue in cheek. Yeah, but I love it. It's quite for that reason. Yeah. Quite memorable. Hopefully. Yeah, I really like the name as well. So that's that's quite a new venture for me, but so it's like early days. It's going pretty well. So yeah, I'm kind of doing that alongside my, my job in animal welfare. Yeah. In terms of like, working with reactive dogs, it's, not something I necessarily like. Maybe I should, but it's not something I necessarily advertise as, like, being a specialty, but it's definitely something that, I'm interested in, in working and working in, because of my experiences. I think it just being a reactive dog guardian yourself, just gives you that extra level of sort of empathy and understanding. And so, yeah, hopefully I'll be able to help other people, with, with their, with their reactive dogs too. That's the plan. I love it. What what would your number one piece of advice be for people who are maybe at that point with their dog, where they're just not seeing it anymore? They're kind of like you describe it's all on me. I don't know what you want. I don't know where to go from here. What's the, one? Or maybe there's more piece pieces of advice that you would give them. I think I would say, give yourself a break. Get get help from people around you to give yourself that physical and mental break from your dog. You know, you. We all love our dogs today, but it's okay to want to spend some time away from them. And if you have that available to you, if you have a dog walker or you have, someone who can take, you know, a family member that can take them for the day and just to give yourself that breathing space, will just when you then come back to your dog, you will just be in a much better headspace to actually be able to handle these situations, because I think the, the most difficult part of it is if you're so trigger stuck and overwhelmed, you're then not in the right headspace to be working with your dog and training your dog and helping your dog. So excuse me. Helping your dog, get through these difficulties. So if you're not looking after yourself, then you're not gonna be able to look after your dog either. So I think, yeah, just give yourself that space. I think would be my main. My main, advice. Is there anything because we could have gone in a lot of directions, and I would have also still love to ask you about, you know, the interaction with your partner because relationships and the impact a dog has on that is also always a big theme. But I also want to be mindful of the time. Is there something that we've missed or that's now just popping up in your head where you go like, oh yes, I really would like to talk about this or mentioned that? I don't think so. I think we've covered pretty much everything that I wanted to. But I forgot to my partner. I can just comment really quickly in that, you know, he's been hugely supportive and in everything that I've done, I'm very, very lucky. I think it was hard for him to see me be so distressed. For him maybe not to know exactly what to do, to be able to help apart from, you know, telling me to go and do something else and let him handle the everything with the dog. But I'm also a terrible I'm a terrible person for like, oh, you know, just go and relax and watch TV. I'm like, no, I can't do that. So that I'm, I'm not very helpful in that respect. But, also, you know, this was, this was months first of a dog. So he grew up with cats, and so he'd never had a dog before. And skepticism. By fire. Absolutely. Yeah. He's he's wonderful with Aussie. He's amazing. And he's just, changed his job to, so he was working in hospitality, and he's now a full time dog walker. No. Yeah. So we're really just making it. Our whole personality. Oh, wow. So definitely kudos to him as well. And absolutely. So that would that be then I guess. Would that be the advice that you would give partners? Take take some of the work off the hands of the main caregiver, allow them some breathing space? Yeah, I think so. And, you know, just being, just being there and being supportive and, you know, sort of saying like, understand and your, you know, the way you're feeling is so valid. I think for me, it was it was very much like I felt like, you know, so many people have dogs and people don't feel like this must just be me. And, how I'm feeling is just, you know, overreacting and all this stuff. But that was always very good at being like, no, you know, this is valid. You're allowed to feel this way. You're allowed to be sad, you're allowed to be frustrated. And I think that really helps as well. I think, again, going back to, you know, being given permission, permission to, to feel a certain way, and to not feel guilty about it. Yeah. I think that's I think that's the main thing. There's no threshold value, you know, there's no threshold, below which we're not allowed to feel bad or below which we shouldn't feel bad or there's nothing small enough or tiny enough to not feel bad about you. Like once it's there, once you feel bad, it's. That's it. So if you feel bad about something tiny and that's a qualification, and that's already a thought that has, I would urge people to get rid of, then so be it. And there's nothing small and nothing tiny about caring for, a dog was character, let's put it that way. That yeah, lots of character. All right, that brings me to the three words that I ask everyone to comment on at the end of an episode expectation, frustration, and celebration. What comes to mind for you when you hear that? I think for me, expectation definitely is the expectation of myself rather than the expectation is of my dog. The expectation that I, I should be doing, you know, certain things in certain ways at certain times. An amount of times. You know, I have put a lot of pressure on myself to, to, to maybe do too much because I do have these high expectations of myself. So that's what comes up for that. I think also there's something to be said for, the expectation of when you are, when you are a dog professional, the expectation of having a perfect dog, which just is definitely not the case for me and probably isn't the case for, for anybody. But I think there is not that expectation of, you know, well, if, if I, if I'm taking Aussie for a walk and he's being reactive and then people, people know in my local area that I'm a, I'm a dog professional, then they're going to think, well, you know, maybe she's not that good because her dog's having this big reaction. So I think that's definitely a key part of expectation for me. Frustration just being a dog. Gosh. Very frustrating. Again I think it says more of for me. In my mind it says more about me than it does about my dog. So, it, I think it relates to expectation in the way that I can get very easily frustrated with myself because I do have these high expectations. And so just, learning to go, okay, so I'm feeling frustrated. What can I do about that? Let's take a break or let's do something different. Let's do something easy. Let's do something fun. Instead of just, you know, getting yourself more and more worked up. If something's not going exactly to plan and then celebration, it's just, I don't know, it's it's everything about being a dog guardian, because I would, you know, see my dog first thing in the morning, and I'm like, yeah, it's you. You're here. So for me, that's a celebration because I'm like, oh, look at you. So cute. I love you so much. And also, yeah, like the celebration of that relationship. Because it is, it's really special. You know, it isn't easy. It's definitely not been easy for us. But it is it is really special and wouldn't actually change it for the world. So, yeah, just the celebration of of loving your dog. Really? I think. Perfect. I want to quickly get back to what you said about expectation and the expectation as a dog professional, that you have a perfect dog. Yeah, I have coached on this so much. Also, like dog trainer clients. And I just want to put it out there again. If you are a dog professional who is a non perfect dog, get yourself out there because that is not the reason why people won't hire you. It's the reason why people hire you. Clients will hire you because they know that you understand them, and that they know that you are not going to think that their concerns are stupid or any of that because they know that you've been where where they are. I love that. So that's just me, my little preaching to the choir thing here. Yeah, I love that. Tell me where people can find you on social media, where they can find out more about mother hoppers, maybe where they can find out more about Matt. Let's, you know, plug him to and his dog walking service all the places. I will also link them. So don't stop driving. Don't do any of that. But in case you're a person who remembers everything because of all this, if retention. Here it comes. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm on Instagram, which is, mother puppies, dog training. Facebook is motherpuppers dog training and behavior. And then my website is motherpuppers dog training. Okay, okay. Also, if you want to see cute pictures of Ozzy, he has an Instagram account, which is, Ozzy from Romania. And then, so my partner Matt, who's doing dog walking, he is dog working for a company called Fetch Cambridge. So, you can go check them out as well. Awesome. That just leaves me to thank you for sharing your story here on the podcast, for reaching out. I loved having you. Amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. You can find the show notes to this episode and everything coaching on my website kajsavanoverbeek.com. Or you can go find us on Instagram@theruscattledog and maybe even Facebook Kajsa van Overbeek Coaching. If you like listening to this podcast, might I ask you for a get review on whichever platform you're listening to? The podcast too, because it helps move up? The rating, which helps us be found more easily so that more people can listen to this, more people can benefit from it, more people can feel, as I always say, less alone in where they stand. With their dogs.